#2096 - Josh Dubin & Sheldon Johnson

Joe Rogan (0:04)

The Joe Rogan Experience.

Josh Dubin (0:16)

Mr. Rogan.

Joe Rogan (0:17)

Always, always a pleasure. Introduce your friend.

Josh Dubin (0:20)

This is my friend, my client, my brother, Sheldon Johnson.

I figured we'd do something a little bit different. Typically, the person sitting to my right is someone that was wrongfully convicted. So I don't want to bury the headline. Sheldon is guilty.

And I thought it would be a real interesting conversation to learn his background, learn about his upbringing, learn about the crime that he committed, and hear the sentence he got, which I don't want to shade it and inject my opinion. I have a strong one, but it's pretty astounding how he was treated by the system. I think that there's a real interesting twist that happens at his sentencing. And I know I've said this before, and it probably sounds repetitive, but another miracle sitting to my right, just like a marvelous human being who was basically told by a judge, by an African-American judge, that you don't matter, you don't count, and I'm gonna throw your life away for a crime in which the victim received two stitches and on a second offense, his first offense being a gun possession charge. So I will say this, that he received a sentence that far eclipses a sentence that would be commonly doled out for murder or manslaughter. So, with that, here's Sheldon.

Joe Rogan (2:16)

Sheldon, how long have you been out for?

Sheldon Johnson (2:19)

Going on nine months. I got out May 4th. And you were in for 25 years and five months.

For two stitches.

Josh Dubin (2:30)

Two stitches.

But one of the things that always struck me about Sheldon was, I didn't know him. And I got a call from these two remarkable attorneys at an organization called the Center for Appellate Litigation, Barbara Zolot and Allison Haupt, who had been working on his case for a long time. And they called me and Derek Hamilton and said, you know, we know you're working on some stuff with the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. We have this case that is sort of hit a snag. I want you to take a look at it and see if you could help us. And I called Barbara back and said, I think that there's a mistake here because it says that he was sentenced to 50 years. I mean, that's no bullshit. I could not believe what I was reading. And then I read about what Sheldon had accomplished while in prison.

And then his earliest date of release was, I think, 2049 And he had already served 25 years. So I was just blown away by the level of accomplishment and the mental wherewithal that he possessed to accomplish what he did while incarcerated. And then the path he's taken in the eight months since he's been out is, we talk about on these episodes, how do you make change happen? He's living it and making it happen. So I thought it would be just fascinating to go through, like I said, his life, how he got to where he was, why he got this, what his thoughts are and our thoughts are on the sentence he received, why that happens too often to people of color. And I know there's one thing I want to say and then I'm going to shut up and really let Sheldon talk and you talk.

I get this a lot, why are you always bringing up race when you talk about the system? And my response to that is, if you don't talk about how it impacts the system, even for people that have been found guilty, it's like having a conversation about President Biden and ignoring the very obvious apparent cognitive deficiencies he has. It would be like talking about Donald Trump and not recognizing that he seems like an unhinged lunatic. It would be like talking about Kamala Harris and ignoring that she didn't do much to advance criminal justice reform. You have to confront it. It's there.

Is it that all people that get wrongfully convicted are people of color? No, but most of them. Is it that all people of color get disparate sentences? Oh, absolutely.

So that's why I thought that this is an important conversation to have and getting to know Sheldon just thought he has a remarkable story to tell and a perspective on his circumstances, the system, and he's someone that's taken responsibility for what he did and I think is a living example of what can happen if we think long and hard about if someone's life is worth just throwing away and putting behind bars so that they can rot in a dank cell, because he would have been 70 years old when he got out way past his life expectancy.