1999: Debt: An American True Crime Story

**Farnoosh Torabi** (0:00)
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**SPEAKER_2** (0:36)
You're listening to So Money with award-winning money guru Farnoosh Torabi. Each day, get a 30-minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers, and from Farnoosh herself.
Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons? Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life? Welcome to So Money.

**Rachel Webster** (1:03)
What does money represent? You know, money is a proxy for our security. That is very much how we have organized our society. We live very individual lives. There's a nuclear family. There's you're responsible for your own finances, you know, for better or for worse. And so that will, you know, become this proxy for your security, your sense of security in the world. It manifested very differently for me from how it did for Jamie. But I think all of it kind of leads us to this idea of like, it's my self sufficiency. I am responsible. I am personally responsible for everything. And I think it ignores a lot of these other structural factors that make it very hard for people, especially people who aren't necessarily good with math or don't care about these things, you know, and I don't think that I think we'd kind of expect everybody to be really good at this stuff.

**Jamie Feldman** (1:46)
Or feel bad about it if they're not good at it.

**Farnoosh Torabi** (1:48)
Welcome to So Money, everyone. I'm Farnoosh.
What if debt is not a personal failure, but a symptom of a much bigger problem? For years, we've been told that financial struggles come down to individual choices. Just spend less, budget better, work harder. But what if the real story is a lot more complicated? My guests today are Jamie Feldman and Rachel Webster, creators and hosts of the award-winning podcast Debt Heads. It's a groundbreaking series that they describe as a quote, true crime investigation into the murder of our bank accounts. Season one began with Jamie's own experience of navigating credit card debt and the shame that came with it. But what started as one woman's debt payoff journey quickly evolved into a deeper investigation into the systems, cultural pressures and economic realities that leave so many of us financially stuck. Jamie is a writer, editor and storyteller. Her friend and co-host Rachel is a filmmaker and producer. Together they've built a fiercely honest, deeply funny and surprisingly hopeful podcast community around the topic of most of us avoid talking about money. Now as Debt Heads returns for its second season, the hosts are widening their lens beyond spending and debt to explore work, job security, income instability and what it means to pursue financial well-being in a world that often feels increasingly precarious. In our conversation, we talk about the hidden connections between mental health and money, why so many women tie their self-worth to spending, how shame keeps us isolated, and why financial security is about far more than your net worth.
Let's get into it.
Jamie Feldman and Rachel Webster, welcome to So Money.

**Jamie Feldman** (3:32)
Hi, so great to meet you.

**Farnoosh Torabi** (3:34)
The Debt Heads meets So Money. Why have you waited so long for this engagement?

**Jamie Feldman** (3:41)
I think because like debt heads and So Money feels like maybe like an oxymoron.

**Farnoosh Torabi** (3:49)
You're both So Money now. I mean, that's true.
But let's talk about the origin, right? So Debt Heads, your podcast, is essentially a true crime, personal finance podcast that using your words, investigates the murder of our bank accounts.

**Jamie Feldman** (4:07)
Yes.

**Farnoosh Torabi** (4:08)
Take me to the crime scene. Take me to the crime scene that first got your attention.

**Jamie Feldman** (4:12)
It's funny because now that you're saying that, I'm realizing it's a true crime investigation, but we already know who the suspect is. The suspect is not a surprise. Yeah. I mean, that came about because the way we started talking about money was because I was dealing with credit card debt as so many people in this country are. But at the time, I was under the impression that I was the only person in the whole world that ever had credit card debt. And I kept it a secret for a very long time. It was not something I spoke openly about despite being like a chronic oversharer and generally wanting to talk about everything. And I just at a certain point hit this breaking point. I had almost maxed out a credit card. I had lost my job as so many people. You know, all of these things that are very sort of a hallmark of the American experience, but I felt very alone and isolated in that situation. Despite the fact that I have a really solid community, I have a best friend who I share everything with, and I started opening up a little bit more, I mean, a lot more, kind of suddenly and all at once and quickly realized, A, how not alone I was, B, how big of a topic this was for so many people, and C, like that the story was not about me and my debt. The story is about trying to have a life and like live in the world that is really conducive to you having a life.