#1774 - Josh Dubin

Joe Rogan (0:04)

The Joe Rogan Experience. Good to see you, man.

Josh Dubin (0:15)

I've never called you Joseph.

Joe Rogan (0:16)

That's okay, I never called you Joshua. I think I did it like five minutes ago.

Josh Dubin (0:20)

That's all right. My mom and my wife call me Joshua.

Joe Rogan (0:23)

Oh, well, I'm sorry.

Josh Dubin (0:24)

That's all right.

Joe Rogan (0:26)

It depends on the context. First of all, we should talk about the people that got off because of the last podcast we did, because that's an amazing thing.

So let's talk about that, because of you and your work, there's two men out there that would still be in jail. Because of you talking about it and you putting the heat on whoever was responsible, now these two guys are free.

Josh Dubin (0:55)

Yeah, and it's hard to determine with any certainty the various factors that go into an exoneration, or prosecutors dropping charges.

But there are two immovable truths here.

Two young black men have a new lease on life and have had horrific nightmares end. And I know that this platform and this show not only helped that, but were a driving force behind it. And I know it not just based on what I think, I know it based on empirical evidence, because there was a time when I was asked to come to Lawrence, Kansas, and sit at the Lawrence Police Department on the case against Ron Torres Washington, so that the Lawrence Police Department could tell me, here is the evidence we have against your client.

And before the meeting started, the district attorney walked in the room, and instead of saying hello to me, she said, welcome to the armpit. Now, that was a direct reference to something I said on this podcast, that I quickly, right after saying it, caught myself and corrected myself, because the context in which I was saying it, and I said that was a horrible way to put it, or whatever I said, but the context in which I was saying it was, in my mind that if you are a black man or woman, and caught in the criminal justice system in Lawrence, Kansas, that is the armpit. So I knew then and there that she was paying attention, and not just paying attention, but paying attention to this podcast, and she knew full well that I had the cavalry behind me. Now, how much that factored into the story I'll tell later about how those charges against Ron Torres Washington were dropped, and what happened to Albert Wilson, who was the same prosecutor's office, we'll never know.

Joe Rogan (3:24)

Isn't there also an argument for you expressing the facts of the case outside of a courtroom setting where they're trying to win?

Isn't there a problem with prosecutors and defendants and the system that's set up like it's a game? And I don't mean it's a game like it's trivial. I mean it's a game like people are trying to win.

Josh Dubin (3:46)

Yeah, there's a part of that, but I think that in recognizing, and you and I have spoken about this, in recognizing that sort of fault that exists amongst us as mammals, as human beings, that is especially so when you're talking about prosecutors, in my opinion, that have this tunnel vision that we'll talk about. I think you just have to recognize that pressure breaks pipes in these cases. If you think about what's going on with Purvis Payne right now, what's going on with Julius Jones, with Rodney Reed, I mean Purvis Payne is going to get out in five years. Julius Jones, Rodney Reed is facing a new trial. Those results were brought to bear by pressure, public pressure. So one immovable truth, I referred to two before, but one sort of overarching known is that this works. And it's because I want to tell you the spirit in which I'm here today. And, you know, I am here not on behalf of The Innocence Project. I don't speak for them, even though I'm the ambassador advisor.

There are other organizations that I'm involved with that pay attention to news cycles and media. I'm here as Josh Dubin, the human being, that is doing my part, and it's not for me to judge whether it's small or large. Doing my part to help in whatever way I can, whether it's a drop in the bucket, a grain of sand, or something more, and that's for someone else to judge, to help free people that are wrongfully incarcerated, period, full stop.

This show has been a critical part of telling these stories and getting that out there.

I'm not here to have a debate about people's perception of things other people say or pass judgment or anything like that. That's not my role, and that's not what I'm here for. And I think that we need to have a discussion about race in the criminal injustice system. And I know enough about you to know your heart that we're going to have that today. And that is the spirit in which I'm here. And I know the direct result because two young black men were exonerated as a result, at least in part to the show.