#1643 - Jonathan Zimmerman

Joe Rogan (0:14)

Free Speech and Why You Should Give a Damn, Jonathan Zimmerman. Why should we give a damn?

Jonathan Zimmerman (0:20)

Well, we should give a damn because free speech has been at the heart of every movement for change in this country. Every great warrior against oppression was also a warrior for free speech.

Joe Rogan (0:30)

But wouldn't it be convenient if we just silence people we disagree with? That seems a lot easier for me.

Jonathan Zimmerman (0:34)

No, it's natural. All right.

Joe Rogan (0:37)

It is natural, right?

Jonathan Zimmerman (0:38)

And that's why we have to resist it. Like, I get it. Like, everyone's experienced that. Everyone's seen somebody or heard somebody they despise and say, God, I just want that person shut up.

And that's why we have to resist it.

Joe Rogan (0:51)

There's a lot of very intelligent people that disagree with you in this current political climate, unfortunately. I think that was exacerbated by the Trump administration and this desire to, like, stop a lot of the QAnon stuff and the Pizza Gate stuff and a lot of these conspiracy theories that people were frustrated that they were taking hold. And they were like, how do we stop this? We got to stop these people from talking.

Jonathan Zimmerman (1:13)

Right.

Joe Rogan (1:13)

So that's the argument for censorship.

Jonathan Zimmerman (1:16)

That's one of them. And the other argument has to do with race and ethnicity. I mean, the other argument is that it harms minorities. And I think those are different arguments, but sometimes they're connected.

Joe Rogan (1:26)

So you mean censorship against racism? Correct.

Or sexism or homophobia or any of those things.

I think one of the problems that we're dealing with in today's climate is not just that everything is hyper-politicized and people are really very passionate in debating things online, but just the nature of online discourse is so limited. It lends itself to simple sentences, one, 140 or 280 symbols, it's just not enough. It's not enough characters to express yourself. And then also text. Unless you're writing a book, it's hard to get all your thoughts out.

Jonathan Zimmerman (2:07)

And also one of the things that people that study communications have taught us is that when we have exchanges online, they tend to be more uncivil. Well, we will type things and text things about somebody or to somebody that we would never ever say to their face.

Joe Rogan (2:24)

Of course. Yeah.

I don't do that. I try really hard to not do that. And I stopped even going back and forth with people on Twitter a few years ago. And now I take like about a year and a half or so ago, I took it even further. I don't even read my mentions, I don't go in there.

You know, I just, and then I just, I open Twitter up like once a day to see if something crazy is happening. Is any place on fire? Is anybody doing something they shouldn't be doing? Like what is happening?

Jonathan Zimmerman (2:51)

Well, yeah, I'm an op-ed columnist and a couple years ago, I stopped reading the commentary about the op-eds.

Joe Rogan (2:57)

Yeah.

Jonathan Zimmerman (2:57)

Because it, you know, generally it's not that well informed. I mean, there are exceptions to that. But generally, it's just people shooting from the hip and often in a, just in a really nasty interrogatory way, it doesn't help.

Joe Rogan (3:09)

What do you think about social? What is it about social media that lends itself to toxic exchanges? Because it seems to be, I know people that are pretty friendly, positive people in person.

When I meet them, they're friendly, they hug me. And then I see them online, I'm like, you talk so much shit, like, why are you doing this?

Jonathan Zimmerman (3:26)

Yeah, well, I mean, obviously, the anonymity is part of it, right? I mean, it's, you know, they're not even anonymous.

I know. But, but, but you can trick yourself into thinking that, right? It's just, it's you and your keyboard, right? And a bunch of symbols.

There is something that's weirdly dehumanizing about it, right? You can trick yourself into thinking that you're not dealing with other human beings. It's just a, it's just a bunch of text.

Joe Rogan (3:50)

Right. And that, you know, this idea of don't say something to someone online that you wouldn't say to them, to their face, a lot of people don't like that. Like no, because I don't want to be uncomfortable, but I want to express myself. So if I'm around you, if I said what I really felt, I would feel uncomfortable. I don't like it.