1397: Kyle Vowinkel | How an FBI Negotiator Keeps Cool Under Fire

Jordan Harbinger (0:00)

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Jordan Harbinger (1:35)

Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. Even the occasional neuroscientist, Russian chess grandmaster, a real-life pirate, or a special operator. And if you're new to the show, or you're looking for a way to tell your friends about it, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of some of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start, or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today, former FBI hostage negotiator Kyle Vowinkel takes us 10 yards from the boat where the surviving Boston Marathon bomber was hiding and explains how he got a response after gunfire and 12 flashbangs hadn't worked. We'll explore how to keep your brain working under extreme pressure, why the ego that makes you feel like the toughest guy in the room can actually make you the last guy anyone wants on their team. Apparently, being heavily armed doesn't automatically make you a good listener. Who knew? Here we go with Kyle Vowinkel.

So, this book starts off with a bang, really. Your negotiation with the surviving Boston Marathon bomber was like 90 minutes, about the length of a good podcast. So, put me 10 yards from that bullet-riddled boat in Watertown. And my knowledge of this comes from your book and then the movie, which I can't remember what the movie was called. But I guess that was accurate. He was just hiding in some guy's boat?

Kyle Vowinkel (3:11)

Yes, Patriots, say. Pretty good movie.

Jordan Harbinger (3:13)

Right.

Kyle Vowinkel (3:14)

They had an actor portraying my role, and they actually had the negotiator talking to the bomber. But then the movie pace, they cut it out on the editing room floor.

Jordan Harbinger (3:23)

Oh.

Kyle Vowinkel (3:24)

I never got to have my moment in big screen.

Jordan Harbinger (3:26)

Got it. So they're like, hey, we should be keeping it real and have a negotiator. And they're like, no, the test audiences just wanted us to skip straight to shooting. All right.

Kyle Vowinkel (3:34)

My former teammates on the hostage rescue team, the ones that came in and the team leader did a great job. He instilled order into the chaos. Because when we first got there, it was like a circus. Imagine 400 different police officers, every different agency you can imagine, there's no real command and control. And he did a really magnificent job, just calmly, coolly collected, instilled order into that chaos. And so they tried launching flashbangs, non-lethal concussion devices into the boat. And after all, the law enforcement attack has failed, right? We shot at them, commanded to come out, did the flashbangs, none of it worked. And the FBI director said, try to negotiate.