#1383 - Malcolm Gladwell

Joe Rogan (0:04)

Hello, Malcolm. How are you doing?

Malcolm Gladwell (0:07)

I'm doing very well.

Joe Rogan (0:09)

You sound like ee!

Malcolm Gladwell (0:11)

Good, good. That's always a good sign.

Joe Rogan (0:13)

It's through headphones and it's very interesting because I've been listening to Talking to Strangers.

I like that you narrate your books. It's very frustrating when someone who is a great speaker does not narrate their books, so thanks for iving you that.

Malcolm Gladwell (0:25)

No, I actually, I kind of enjoy, I used to hate that process with my first one, and then I've grown to enjoy it, because when you say your book out loud, you see it in a different way. Like, oh, you get a little bit of a different perspective on it.

Joe Rogan (0:42)

Well, I'm a giant fan of your work, man, particularly Outliers. I really love that book. It's very illuminating, and it sort of peels away the mystery of talent.

And so tell me what you're doing. What is this Talking to Strangers I'm into about, I'm in the second chapter right now.

Malcolm Gladwell (1:02)

Oh, I see. Well, that was a book about, I was struck by how many of the kind of high profile cases that we got obsessed with were at their root about the same thing, which is that individuals were, two people who didn't know each other well, had an exchange and they got each other wrong.

So everything from Amanda Knox to Bernie Madoff to Larry Nassar at Michigan State to Jerry Sandusky at Penn State, and then to the signature case, which the book is organized around, which is the Sandra Bland case. Remember the young woman in Texas, who gets pulled over by the side of the road. They're all at root, fundamentally the same problem, which is there's an exchange between, and the exchange just goes wrong. And the question is why? That's what I began to get really fascinated by, is you think at this point in human evolution, we would have got this thing about talking to strangers down, and we clearly don't.

And we're being pushed to talk more and more to strangers, right, in a kind of globalized world. And if we're bad at it, that doesn't bode well, does it?

Joe Rogan (2:16)

Well, I think there's also an issue today with people not learning the necessary skills in how to talk to people, because so much communication is done digitally.

Malcolm Gladwell (2:28)

Yeah.

Joe Rogan (2:29)

It seems to be a giant issue with young kids. They're more awkward initially talking to people than I think I remember.

Malcolm Gladwell (2:36)

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's probably, you forget how much, I mean, adolescence used to be this one long rehearsal in how to be a normal human being in conversation. And now the rehearsal, it's like the rehearsal got cut in half.

And instead of getting to the point where we play basketball with basketballs, we're still just doing wind sprints or something.

Joe Rogan (3:04)

Right, you never get to actually playing a game.

Malcolm Gladwell (3:06)

Playing a game. I'm butchering the metaphor here.

Joe Rogan (3:08)

I know what you're saying, though. The Sandra Bland case, how does that one fit in? Because that girl was pulled over. Mm-hmm. The cop was, it was failure to signal, right?

Malcolm Gladwell (3:22)

Yeah, I mean, it's a bullshit thing.

Joe Rogan (3:23)

It's a bullshit thing. And she started lighting a cigarette. He told her to put the cigarette out, and it all escalated from that. She said she doesn't have to put the cigarette out.

And then he says he's gonna light her up.

He's screaming at her. He pulls her out of the car. He rests her. And then, is there controversy about whether or not she committed suicide in jail?

Malcolm Gladwell (3:45)

There is. I don't get into that.

Joe Rogan (3:47)

Okay. Because it seemed, that seemed unlikely.

Malcolm Gladwell (3:51)

That she was killed, as opposed to committing suicide.

Joe Rogan (3:54)

Yes, it seemed likely that she was killed versus that she committed suicide. I didn't think that someone would commit suicide, being in jail for three days. Especially one of the things that you highlighted in the book and you actually played in the audio version of it, her little sort of affirmations, you know.

And she was, she sounded very positive and upbeat and calling everybody kings and queens. And it was, and thanking God and being very thankful and being aware of life and humility and just graciousness and gratitude. It didn't seem, I mean, obviously you don't know I mean, what kind of dark things can happen to a person when they're incarcerated for three days for a bullshit reason? Like how, maybe that's the straw that broke the camel's back, but.