Tools for Overcoming Substance & Behavioral Addictions | Ryan Soave

**Andrew Huberman** (0:00)
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Ryan Soave. Ryan Soave is a renowned expert in addiction treatment and trauma recovery. Ryan has spent decades on the front lines helping people overcome addictions to substances like alcohol and various drugs, as well as behavioral addictions, including gambling, video games, and pornography. His approach combines evidence-based protocols tailored to each person's unique family history and needs. During today's episode, we explore all aspects of addiction, including the relationship between addiction and trauma. Ryan shares insights from his extensive clinical work and provides clear zero-cost protocols for effective recovery that leverage neuroplasticity, which is your brain's ability to change with intention and experience. We discuss and compare residential treatment programs, 12-step programs, self-guided addiction recovery, and more. If you or someone you know suffers from addiction, the information and tools offered in this episode ought to be of tremendous benefit to initiate and maintain sobriety from that behavior or substance. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Ryan Soave. Ryan Soave, welcome.

**Ryan Soave** (1:34)
I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

**Andrew Huberman** (1:36)
You're the guy that people call, reach out to, cry to when everything comes crashing down. That's kind of your thing.

**Ryan Soave** (1:50)
Yeah.

**Andrew Huberman** (1:51)
And you have this incredible gift really to orient people in time and space when that sort of thing is happening. And you do this for men, women, teens, kids, adults, families. You've pretty much seen it all, although I'm sure there's more to come. I would love for you to just explain to people listening what addiction is.
And how you see it show up in people's lives. I know that you tend to get things like a trauma surgeon would see the human body hemorrhaging and in need of great support. But how do you think about addiction?

**Ryan Soave** (2:36)
First, I'd like to make a little bit of a distinction. You know, we're going to talk about addiction. When we look at the DSM, the diagnostic manual that we use for diagnosing psychological disorders, not really addiction as a diagnosis. That's not super important necessarily because we can talk about it in the term of addiction. But you know, we can look at people and look at biological, psychological and social factors and make a diagnosis to see that they've got a substance use disorder, an alcohol use disorder, whether it's moderate or severe or they're dependent on it. And not to give people an out, but not all people that show up with an alcohol use disorder for a point in time are necessarily an addict. They may not be forever. It might been a life circumstance that kind of brought them there. That said, someone that at a point in time in their life could have an alcohol use disorder or substance use disorder, you know, they're probably prone to that and they probably shouldn't continue down that path or gamble with it. So, talking about addiction in general, I like to broaden that definition to really, you know, question I'll ask people is, does it have you or do you have it? Is it driving you and your behaviors? Are you really leaning on it in a way that that's your medicine? Because I don't really see addiction as the problem. You know, addiction is the solution. Whatever they're addicted to is the solution to some underlying stressor. You know, I think as humans, we, when we're dis- when we're uncomfortable, when we're experiencing pain, our kind of immediate reaction is to get out of that. And when that stress becomes really big, we're going to look for the things that are going to impact us a lot quicker, you know, taking a drink, using a drug. Now once people start doing that, depending on what it is, you know, if it's heroin or fentanyl, they can become physically addicted to it very quickly or alcohol over time.
But I think the definition can be expanded to a lot of other things, maybe even things that seem mundane, you know, and we can have addictive behaviors at different points in our life and maybe have the same behavior that sometimes is addictive and sometimes isn't. You know, this is very mundane, but sometimes I'm binge watching Netflix because I'm on a plane and don't have anything to do or I'm sick and I can't get out of bed. And other times I might have a really stressful day or have something going on that I don't want to deal with, and I end up watching TV too late and then I don't sleep. And now is that an addiction that I need to get treatment for or be pulled away from my family for? Probably not. But it's I think in talking about addiction, we want to understand, you know, what is it that people are using, whether it's a substance or a behavior and why are they using it? You know, while I say it's addiction is not the problem, it's the solution. It's a solution that becomes very problematic for people. And, you know, you will know this better than I will be able to explain it better than I would, but, you know, they get a benefit in their brain and body for feeling the sense of relief that they'll feel when they use the substance, you know. One of the doctors who initially supported the people who founded Alcoholics Anonymous, his name was Dr. Silkworth and he wrote this opinion and he said, men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. I believe that effect is relief. So people are looking for some sort of relief. And the question has to be, I think, when we're talking about addiction, what is it that they're looking for relief from?