JD Vance vs. the Pope and the Far-Right Funding Machine (Question Time)

**Alastair Campbell** (0:00)
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**Rory Stewart** (0:13)
The reality is that Vance and the administration are wrong. I mean, they're theologically illiterate.

**Alastair Campbell** (0:19)
Yeah.

**Rory Stewart** (0:20)
They are consistently portraying a worldview, which is, well, in a lot of their actions, almost seems to be completely unbound by any kind of ethical principles.

**Alastair Campbell** (0:30)
This is a deliberate thing of constantly wrapping up what they're doing in religious rhetoric. And if you are somebody like Poglio, who clearly can't stand what these people are doing to America and to the world, then you can see why he would get very, very offended.
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**Rory Stewart** (1:45)
Visit fuseenergy.com for full details and terms and conditions. Welcome to The Rest Is Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart.

**Alastair Campbell** (2:06)
And me, Alastair Campbell. And we're going to talk Trump v. the Pope again, because he keeps rumbling on. We are going to have a bit of a deep dive into the well-organized funding of right-wing organizations against women's rights and other issues which will take us into Hungary, which plays a big part in that. And then we'll maybe try and lighten up a bit because this has been a pretty heavy week. But Rory, where shall we start?

**Rory Stewart** (2:34)
OK, so why don't we start with the first question, who's from Ellie, who's a Trip Plus member from Hong Kong. Hi, Alastair and Rory. I really enjoyed your articles in the newsletter about Trump's response to the Pope.
My question is, what does it say about the state of religion and politics when political figures feel comfortable lecturing religious leaders on their own theology? Is this just naked power politics, or does it reflect a genuine belief among the MAGA movement that they represent true Christianity better than the Pope does? Before I hand over to you, there are two examples of this. Strongly from JD Vance, who of course, is very proud of being a born-again Catholic. He managed to get in an argument with the last Pope about what he called the order of love in which he tried to argue that Christianity was essentially about looking after your own family and people first and other people later. Now he's managed to get in an argument with the current Pope about Augustinian just war theory, where he claims the Iran war is a just war. Over to you.

**Alastair Campbell** (3:39)
Well, I was thinking about this. As you know, Roy, I love football, but I would not argue about football tactics with Pep Guaniola. I wouldn't argue with Margaret Atwood about how to construct a novel and I would definitely not argue about theology with the Pope.
And that is not because I believe in papal infallibility. I don't. But I know that to get where he is, he has had to devote his whole life to theology and to impressing a lot of people in the Catholic Church that he knows his stuff.
JD Vance got to where he is because Donald Trump put him there. And as you say, he's become a Catholic. He's apparently writing a book about this wonderful conversion. And he genuinely thinks he can argue with the Pope on theology. So does Mike Johnson, the speaker, so does Pete Hexseth. And this is what happens, I think, with cults.
You know how Sean Hannity, the kind of well-known MAGA broadcaster, say, I no longer consider myself a Catholic because of this brow going on between Trump and the Pope. In other words, if I have to choose the Pope or Trump, I'm going to go with Trump. And what's incredible about all of these people is that they seem to have real trouble with the Pope being an expert on scripture, but no trouble with Trump posting pictures of himself as Jesus, or frankly, being a deeply un-Christian human being. And the other thing, don't forget Roy, this all started, this particular chapter in this row started when Texas Deputy in the Pentagon, Elbridge Colby, met the Vatican's US envoy, a guy called Cardinal Christophe Pierre, and warned that the US military had the power to do whatever it wants in the world, and the Catholic Church better decide what side it's on.