You Might Also Like: The Tamsen Show

**Tamsen Fadal** (0:05)
Hi friends, welcome back to The Tamsen Show. I am so glad you're here with me today.
Every once in a while, there's an episode that stays with me for a really long time after we record it. This is one of those episodes. I have dated two narcissists and those relationships, they change the way I saw myself for years. I questioned my instincts, my confidence, even looking at my own reality. Looking back now, I can see the red flags, like really clearly. At the time, I couldn't.
And I wanted to bring this conversation back because I know so many of you still feel stuck even years after a relationship has ended, or maybe you're in one right now. My guest is Dr. Ramani Durvasula, one of the world's leading experts on narcissism and narcissistic relationships. Together, we're talking about the warning signs most women miss, why it's so hard to leave, and how to stop losing yourself in the process. I gotta tell you what, I wish I had heard this conversation years earlier in my life. I really hope it helps you. And by the way, if you're enjoying the show, I'd love if you could just take a second to leave a rating or a review on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast. It really, really helps more women find these conversations. Let's get into it with Dr. Ramani Durvasula.

**SPEAKER_2** (1:18)
So good, so good, so good.

**SPEAKER_3** (1:20)
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**Tamsen Fadal** (2:19)
Dr. Ramani, I am so excited you're here today.

**Dr. Ramani Durvasula** (2:21)
I'm so happy to be here, Tamsen. Really, I love what you're doing for women with women and having this conversation. Again, I think maybe 25 years ago, I'm like, whatever. Now, honey, I'm on the peri-menopause downslope here.

**SPEAKER_3** (2:37)
Well, we've got you, so not to worry.

**Tamsen Fadal** (2:39)
We're going to make it an upslope, though. It'll be good.

**Dr. Ramani Durvasula** (2:41)
I love it.

**Tamsen Fadal** (2:41)
It'll be good. Your book has just been game-changing and fascinating. I know so many women have brought it up to me. So I knew I had to have you on this podcast.
For this reason, though, it's because a lot of women in midlife are looking around and saying, what is going on when it comes to my relationships, when it comes to my health, when it comes to my career?
We talked about it a little bit, but I want to dive in because you discuss narcissism in such a way that I don't realize that it goes into so many different areas of our lives. I just had no idea. Can you define first what is a narcissist, just to get down to basics? What is that?

**Dr. Ramani Durvasula** (3:20)
A narcissistic person is a person with a narcissistic personality, just like a stubborn person is a person with a stubborn personality, an agreeable person is someone with an agreeable personality. A narcissistic personality is a personality that's characterized by low empathy. I don't say no empathy, but low empathy. They know how to turn it on when they need to.

**SPEAKER_5** (3:39)
Charming, they can be charming.

**Dr. Ramani Durvasula** (3:41)
They can be.
It's low empathy that is there, and sometimes it's not. Entitlement, arrogance, pathological selfishness, and excessive need for admiration. And I say excessive, we all want to be admired.

**SPEAKER_5** (3:54)
Sure, of course.

**Dr. Ramani Durvasula** (3:55)
But this is an excessive need for admiration. And if they don't get it, they get really angry.
They don't manage strong emotions well. There's no frustration tolerance. So people who are narcissistic are either raging at you if you don't do or say exactly what they want, or there's a passive aggressive withholding, withdrawing sort of silent treatment. So these are personalities where relationships are really about control and dominance. But what I always say is that all that stuff, the entitlement, the arrogance, the grandiosity, I'm so great, look at me, I'm charming, it's all covering this deeper insecurity and shame. And that anytime that insecurity or shame threatens to percolate up in the narcissistic person, that's when you see the attack. Now it could be that your so-called attack is as simple as saying, Hey, could you pick up the kids today? You want me to pick up the kids?