What Finnish president Alexander Stubb learned from golfing with Trump

**Alexander Stubb** (0:00)
I do believe that in politics, you have to be yourself, you have to be genuine. And I actually think that in politics, especially in politics, you get pretty much what you deserve. Of course, this is not a universal theory as we know, but more or less, the ones who are straightforward get up to the top.

**Adam Grant** (0:23)
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to ReThinking, my podcast with TED on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.
Finland's president, Alexander Stubb, followed an unusual path into politics. He was an academic specializing in political science, ended up winning a seat in European Parliament, and eventually became Finland's prime minister in 2014
But he left that role after just one year, expecting to leave politics behind altogether. After serving as Finland's finance minister, Alex went into banking and then back to academia. He wrote a book called The Triangle of Power about understanding and bringing balance to the New World Order. But political office eventually called him back, and in 2024, Alex became the president of Finland. It's a role more suited to him because prime ministers focus on domestic politics, whereas presidents are more involved in foreign policy.

**Alexander Stubb** (1:24)
When I was prime minister, I started my day with a sulk, and when I'm president, I start my day with a smile.

**Adam Grant** (1:31)
As it turns out, one of his first foreign affairs classes was actually a college in the US, where he studied on a golf scholarship. But before academia, he had a few other career ideas in mind.

**Alexander Stubb** (1:42)
That's right. I mean, I think my life is pretty much along your book, but I think again and therefore rethinking. So I had a lot of dreams when I was a kid. First, I wanted to be a professional ice hockey player, and my dad was an NHL scout, so he saw that, no, that guy's not going to be good enough. So I had to rethink, and then I wanted to become a professional golfer. And that actually took me to the US to study at Furman University in Greenville, South Carolina.

**Adam Grant** (2:08)
I'd love to hear a little bit of the backstory on that, particularly because you were told by your dad that even if you didn't become a professional golfer, the skills would come in handy.

**Alexander Stubb** (2:19)
Yeah, indeed. My dad had said to me when I was young that, you know, even if you don't become professional, it's going to come handy to you. And he probably meant business, but I never knew that I would end up on a golf course with the president of the United States.

**Adam Grant** (2:32)
Tell me how that happened.

**Alexander Stubb** (2:34)
I mean, it was kind of matchmaking to a certain extent. So Lindsey Graham, who is a senator in South Carolina, he was quite excited about the fact that the president of Finland, a new NATO country, has studied at Furman in South Carolina. And he knew that I was there in a little golf scholarship. And he sort of said, why don't we go and play with the president? I said, well, if you insist, sure. So we ended up playing around golf in Florida, which was quite pleasant.

**Adam Grant** (3:00)
Very, very different context to build a relationship than if you're sitting in the White House. What was that like?

**Alexander Stubb** (3:06)
Well, it's, you know, anytime you spend the better part of seven hours with someone, so breakfast, then three, four hours in the course, and then lunch, you get to know a person. And anyone who plays golf knows that you play one or two holes with a person, and that reveals the personality more than any meeting room or even quality time at a dinner party, because you're kind of struggling with your own game, how people react to a good shot, a bad shot, you know, how they behave. So it was quite an opening experience, and as I said, a really pleasant one.

**Adam Grant** (3:39)
I can imagine being a little bit nervous in that situation, because on the one hand, you don't want to be terrible.
On the other hand, do you want to beat the leader of the free world? Do you want to potentially bruise his ego? How did you approach that?

**Alexander Stubb** (3:51)
Well, I mean, two points on this. First, when you have a few hundred thousand repetitions in your body, there's no need to be nervous. You know that as a diver as well, you know, you can do a backflip or whatever on command even after a few years. The second issue, it was solved very easy. We were on the same team.