The difference between joy and relief with Allison Sweet Grant

**Allison Sweet Grant** (0:00)
When the brain fog is at its worst, it feels to me like being a painter and not being able to direct your paintbrush in the exact way that you want it to. And so everything is sort of like drippy or melty, or just more abstract. I was just working with a much more limited palette, and I couldn't find the colors even though I was looking for them.

**Adam Grant** (0:30)
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to ReThinking, my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.
Back by Popular Demand is one of my all-time favorite authors, Allison Sweet Grant, who has a psychiatry background and also happens to be my wife. She came on for the first time a year and a half ago, and I'm still getting emails, calls and texts about our driving debate. If we're taking two cars somewhere, if you're following me, I think it's the person following who's responsible for keeping up.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (1:12)
No. If you're ahead of me, it's your job to slow down so that I don't lose you.

**Adam Grant** (1:17)
Just asking if you could drive a little faster if you're following me.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (1:22)
I think you're in the wrong, and I think everyone is going to agree with me.

**Adam Grant** (1:27)
We finally found a solution to this debate. We're going to talk about that and some burning questions that often come up for us, like whether Seinfeld is better than Friends, why you don't want to run into your dentist at the beach, and what habit she wants me to rethink. We're starting with Allison's first memoir, Lump, which debuts this month. It's poetry and prose about her experience with breast cancer, and she writes beautifully about the fear and guilt many cancer patients feel. The joy versus relief of healing, why it's complicated to be called a survivor, and how we can provide better care and support to our loved ones.
Allison, welcome back to ReThinking.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (2:04)
Thank you. Thank you for helping me, helping me.

**Adam Grant** (2:09)
What was that a word? I don't know. Tell me something that you've rethought lately.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (2:13)
I mean, I guess the easiest answer is to say coming on your podcast, because I don't want to be seen as like a podcast nepo baby.

**Adam Grant** (2:24)
You just coined a new term.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (2:25)
Yeah.

**Adam Grant** (2:26)
There's no such thing in this context.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (2:28)
Well, I'm here. I'm doing it. So I did re-think it.

**Adam Grant** (2:32)
You are officially here to talk about your new book, Lump, a memoir in Ineloquent Reflections.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (2:39)
Indeed.

**Adam Grant** (2:40)
Which I loved and I didn't just love it because I love you.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (2:44)
You say that a lot.

**Adam Grant** (2:45)
Well, it's true though. I think, I mean, I think this is a writer's dream that the best version of you shows up on the page.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (2:52)
I would agree.

**Adam Grant** (2:53)
And all the rough drafts that you discard and don't publish, people who know you see in real life.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (3:00)
So your day-to-day personality is a rough draft in a way?

**Adam Grant** (3:05)
Yes, exactly. Which is why so many people are disappointed when they meet their heroes.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (3:09)
Oh, interesting.

**Adam Grant** (3:10)
Because they saw the peak snapshot, not the daily struggles.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (3:15)
Yeah.

**Adam Grant** (3:16)
But lump. I'm not the only one who loved it.
Lots of people I admire and respect have said it stopped them in their tracks.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (3:26)
Well, thank you. It's certainly nice to hear.

**Adam Grant** (3:28)
There's so many things from it that I want to talk about. But maybe the place to start is the genesis of the book was you having to rethink what a lump was, or at least how you felt about lumps.

**Allison Sweet Grant** (3:44)
Well, I think the genesis of the book was being put in the position to have to rethink that, and maybe not wanting to rethink it, fighting against that to begin with. I mean, I think what stands out to me is that I didn't think lumps, right? I mean, when I used to hear the word lump, I thought of mashed potatoes, or kids hiding under a blanket, or maybe the moguls on a ski hill, or something like that. It did not have anything dark, or scary, or traumatic associated with it.