The Body Trauma Expert: Medicating Kids Can Harm Brain Development! Eye Movement Trick That Fixes Trauma! The Secret To EMDR Therapy! - Bessel van Der Kolk

**Bessel van der Kolk** (0:00)
I've proven how helpful EMDR can be for PTSD and depression.

**Steven Bartlett** (0:04)
Why and how?

**Bessel van der Kolk** (0:04)
Well, trauma is a reliving, and whatever you're feeling is real, as opposed to feeling like a memory. But in our research, we discovered that if you move your eyes back and forth, as you recall a traumatic experience, your brain is able to say, this is what happened to me in the past. And 78% of the people we studied who had adult onset trauma were completely cured.

**Steven Bartlett** (0:22)
Can you do it on me?

**Bessel van der Kolk** (0:23)
I could. What do you see?

**Steven Bartlett** (0:27)
Bessel van der Kolk has been described as maybe the most influential psychiatrist of the 21st century.

**SPEAKER_3** (0:32)
And for over 40 years, his clinical research has revolutionized how we understand trauma and its impact on our brain and body.

**Bessel van der Kolk** (0:38)
Your early childhood experiences create who you are.

**Steven Bartlett** (0:41)
And how many of the people that you treated in your practice have childhood trauma?

**Bessel van der Kolk** (0:45)
About 90%. And it's very difficult to change.

**Steven Bartlett** (0:47)
Are they changeable?

**Bessel van der Kolk** (0:49)
Yes, that is the great news. But the problem is the focus is not on helping people. The focus is on running successful fitness organizations. And even though I was the first person to study yoga for PTSD, which was very effective. And then there's psychotrauma and neurofeedback, where our results were stunning. People are so conformist, we already know the answers. Let's not explore anything new. But let's do the science and see how well it works and for whom.

**Steven Bartlett** (1:12)
And what about psychedelic therapy?

**Bessel van der Kolk** (1:13)
It's very effective.

**Steven Bartlett** (1:14)
Have you ever done a psychedelic drug?

**Bessel van der Kolk** (1:16)
Yeah, of course.

**Steven Bartlett** (1:17)
What did you learn?

**Bessel van der Kolk** (1:18)
That my quest for understanding trauma had to do with my own childhood trauma. All the pain is suffering.

**Steven Bartlett** (1:24)
Earlier on, I asked if people could heal from their trauma. Have you healed from yours?

**SPEAKER_3** (1:31)
The Diary Of A CEO is independently fact checked. For any studies or science mentioned in this episode, please check the show notes.

**Steven Bartlett** (1:38)
Quick one before we get back to this episode. Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning in to the show week after week. Means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to the episode.
Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, you've been described as maybe the most influential psychiatrist of the 21st century by the Financial Times. What is the mission you've spent your life pursuing?

**Bessel van der Kolk** (2:42)
I have been interested in how people survive extreme situations, how people can overcome the history of people doing terrible things to each other, and how we can create a better world in that regard, actually. So the mission has been rather social, but the investigation has been very much based on what you're learning about brain science, what you're learning about psychological functioning, etc., etc.

**Steven Bartlett** (3:14)
And this word trauma seems to be central to your work. And when I looked before this conversation at the rise in the use of this word online and people searching this word, it's pretty staggering what I found. There's this graph that shows a huge jump in people using the word trauma. What is your view on the subject matter of trauma, specifically how we've misunderstood what it is?

**Bessel van der Kolk** (3:38)
Well, there has to be an evolution, which is quite striking. And when I first started to study trauma, I was on the research floor at Harvard, and my colleague said, why are you studying trauma, Bessel? When you croak, nobody will ever talk about trauma again. Like, it's a completely alien subject.