Lt. General Mike Fenzel (Ret.) on bad data, bad experts, and why we can’t exit wars

**Auren Hoffman** (0:00)
Welcome to Summation, the podcast formerly known as World of DaaS. My guest today is Lieutenant General Mike Fenzel. Mike just retired as a three-star Army general who most recently served as the United States security coordinator for Israel and the Palestinian Authority. He's also the author of No Miracles, a book about Soviet decision-making in Afghanistan. He's also had a great career. He was in the bunker with Dick Cheney on 9-11. He's had multiple deployments to Afghanistan.
He commanded an airborne brigade of over 5,500 paratroopers. And also, last but not least, him and I have been friends for over 25 years. Mike, welcome to Summation.

**Mike Fenzel** (0:40)
Thank you very much, Auren. It's a privilege to be here.

**Auren Hoffman** (0:43)
I'm very excited to dive in. You spent the last four years in Jerusalem as security coordinator. What are some non-obvious takeaways about what is going on in that kind of region?

**Mike Fenzel** (0:55)
I think, Auren, the one thing that was very upsetting to me after being there for a few months and even more upsetting to me now is this conflation of the Palestinian cause with the Hamas cause. This is something that I find disturbing. I'm always pushing back against it. My experience is that Palestinians, in general, 99% of them, they just want peace. They just want to live with security and stability and raise their families.
And of course, Hamas is the murderous terrorists that make up that 1%, along with some other terrorist entities like Palestinian Islamic Jihad and others. They're the ones that are sowing violence. There's been a history of corruption within the Palestinian Authority. This hasn't been the case for the last, I'd say, seven years because they have no money to steal, essentially. That they are, in fact, committed to peace and to living side by side with Israelis. Palestinian Authority, their security force leadership and the Israeli security force leadership, they work together very well. This is not publicized for obvious reasons because it wouldn't be popular with either population. The other thing is the insidious nature of extremist settler violence on the Israeli side. This is again a very small population of extremists among Israelis, a hilltop use, they're called in some cases, but they're not just a handful of bad apples there. They make up, let's say, 1% as well of the settler population of about 700,000, and 7,000 bad apples. Extremist settler violence also threatens Israel as much as it does Palestinians, which I found to be incredibly disturbing and something that gave common cause to both sides working together. That is what you hear when you are working with the security leadership, but the political leadership is very different, of course, as you might imagine.

**Auren Hoffman** (2:53)
Are you hopeful that we're going to reach some sort of more enduring peace?

**Mike Fenzel** (2:58)
I am very hopeful. I'm very optimistic. The challenge is that politics get in the way. I had very clear marching orders from Washington, DC in the White House before I went to Israel the first time. That was to set security conditions for the resumption of political talks towards a two-state solution. Clearly, with the current Israeli government, any sort of discussion of two-state solution is anathema. I don't think that's necessary in order to make progress. Simply focusing time and attention on the resumption of political talks is something that can lead us to a place that's more positive than where we are now. I saw so much progress from the entrance of President Trump, given his extraordinary influence in Israel. As the hostages were released, the incredible confidence that the Israeli people have in President Trump personally. And his willingness to step on toes and to address areas that have historically been left untouched. When you're talking about needing to see change and being willing to use the leverage of the security support and assistance that we give to Israel. That is something that he's obviously being willing to do. That Time Magazine article when he said if Israel threatens or intends on annexing the West Bank, we would cease security support. Before he arrived, when I would talk to one ambassador or another, and in my efforts to try and find a way to bring an end to the extremist settler violence, this was something that I was told not to touch, not to mention, not even to bring up. But I think when it comes to our interests as the United States, everything has to be on the table. All discussions have to be free and open. We're seeing that with the Trump administration. And I'm not politically leaning one way or the other. I'm just sharing with you what I see to be the most effective technique with Israel.