Jason Fried, 37signals (makers of Basecamp, HEY and ONCE)

**David Senra** (0:02)
I want to start with what you told me last night, that you feel the best way to make a product, or the best way to make a product for you, is by you are the actual customer. You are making the products that you want to use.

**Jason Fried** (0:14)
Yeah, I don't know how to do it any other way. Like, this is how I've always done it. So back when I was 15, 16, I started in software making stuff, actually something called FileMaker Pro, which is like way back when you can make these databases for yourself. And I made this database to keep track of my music collection because I was loaning out tapes and CDs to friends and never getting them back. So I'm like, I need a way to keep track of this stuff because I keep losing these things. So I made this product, which I eventually called Audio File, but I made it for myself. It was just this database, right? And I made a nice interface because I liked art, I liked making stuff. And so I made this thing. And I eventually just decided that like, I'll put a little text file in this archive of the software that said, if you like this, send me 20 bucks. And I put up on AOL, so it's like pre-internet, right? I put up on AOL, and I got this envelope, actually an airmail envelope. One of those with like the red and blue check marks, like old school like envelope from, and it's from Germany. And I opened it up and somebody printed out this piece of paper, which was the thing I included with the software and gave me a $20 Crisp US bill, right? And that was the moment I think I all clicked for me, which is make stuff for yourself. There's probably other people out there like you who want what you want and make it available to sell.
So, you are the customer, you are the audience, it's you, you, you, and then there'll be other people just like you. We're not all that unique. There's plenty of people who like what we like, plenty of people who don't, and there's plenty of products for them too. But there's enough that like what you like. And so that's where I got started.

**David Senra** (1:40)
Yeah, you have this interesting idea where if you're just making what you want, right? Doesn't matter, you just have to go and collect more people that like the things that you like and kind of ignore the people that don't.

**Jason Fried** (1:51)
Yes. And this is all tied into like keeping your costs low. So, you know, if you have a lot of costs, high costs, big company, you have to find a lot of people like you. But if you keep your costs low, keep your company small, at the time, it was just me, you know, when I was doing the software thing. And I was making like, I don't know, 20 grand a year, like selling software as a solo person when I was like 16 years old or something like that or 17, then I went to college a little bit as well. And it's like that's an amazing little small side business, a huge side business when you're that age, right? Because I had no expenses. And so it's easy. I only had to find like a few thousand people to pay me that money, 20 bucks, right, to get that eventually. But if I had a big business and had a lot of people, a lot of overhead, I'd have to find a lot of people like me. And that's harder. So the whole game for me is to make things as simple as possible, as easy for me as possible. So keep your costs low, keep your company as small as you possibly can, and make great stuff. And then you don't have to find as many people just like you. But the ones you find really love what you do.
And that's enough. That is enough. You can stop there, keep doing stuff, but you can kind of stop there conceptually and go, I'm going to make stuff for me, people like me. I don't need the whole world to like what I like. I need enough of a small world to like what I like. And we're golden.

**David Senra** (3:06)
You put it in a very interesting way. You said your real competition is your costs. Is that the line that you have?

**Jason Fried** (3:11)
Yeah. It's your only competition.

**David Senra** (3:13)
Explain that.

**Jason Fried** (3:15)
Well, a business is very simple. You got to make more than you spend.