Is Trump a Fascist and is his War with Iran Unwinnable?

**Alastair Campbell** (0:07)
Now, Rory Stewart has decided that he and his family should have a podcast-free holiday. But I, obsessive that I am, having never missed a week in the Olympiad we've been doing this, I am here with an absolutely brilliant stand-in. So welcome to The Rest Is Politics with me, Alastair Campbell.

**Dominic Sandbrook** (0:26)
And me, Dominic Sandbrook.

**Alastair Campbell** (0:27)
There we go, it is none other than Dominic Sandbrook from our sister podcast, The Rest Is History, and now also co-presenter of Goalhanger's new show, The Book Club. And boy, do we love books and are we living through history right now. So Dominic, thanks so much for stepping in. There could not be a better time to have your perspective.

**Dominic Sandbrook** (0:49)
Thank you, Alastair. It is nice to be working on a properly professional podcast for once, with the really big star of Goalhanger Stable.

**Alastair Campbell** (0:55)
Exactly. Anyway, I think it is fair to say that as we enter the second month of the Iran War, for the fifth week running, the issue will dominate The Rest Is Politics podcast. There are so many issues and angles to look at. Are Donald Trump's expletive-laden, war-crime-threatening social media post sign of a man losing the war, losing the plot, losing his mind even? Just hours before, he was triumphant at the Americans rescuing a couple of airmen who had been downed in Iran.
But is the fact of their jets downing one more sign that they perhaps have been underestimating their enemy? We've had Pete Hexseth firing Generals Galore. Some say because they don't support the Defense Secretary's notion that this is a war for Jesus, something the Pope has spoken out against. Then we have Lebanon at breaking point. We have Iraq and the worry that is being drawn into this war against its will. And maybe especially pressing for us in Europe is NATO finished. And perhaps most of all, I guess, who's actually winning. So there's a lot of questions that we're going to get into, Dominic. But I wonder if first of all, we shouldn't just have a little seconds out round two. This is to revisit an excellent debate we had on election night in New York. You joined me and Rory, Anthony Scaramucci and Marina Hyde as the Trump victory unfolded. We had quite a heated discussion, especially with the Mooch, on the question, is Trump a fascist? I was basically, yes. Mooch was a very big yes, underlined many times, and you were a no. And I just wondered if you've changed your mind at all, given all that's happened since Trump returned for his second term.

**Dominic Sandbrook** (2:41)
Okay, so the short answer is no, I haven't. It's funny that you mention it, because that's something that I'm asked about a lot. Like a lot of people remember that election night debate about, was Trump a fascist? Especially the exchange between me and Anthony, because Anthony was so adamant that he wasn't a fascist. And I think part of the confusion is that people use the word fascist in two different ways. So number one, people use the word fascist to mean an authoritarian demagogue that they don't like. So when you say, I think Donald Trump is a fascist, or when lots of people say, I think so-and-so is a fascist, I mean, people said Thatcher was a fascist, they said Nixon was a fascist. They often mean this person is very right wing and I don't like them.

**Alastair Campbell** (3:17)
I wouldn't say that about either of those two.

**Dominic Sandbrook** (3:19)
No, of course. I'm not saying you would, by the way. The other definition is more historically specific, which is the one that I would use, which is that I think fascism was a very distinctive historical phenomenon. It came about in the ruins of the First World War. There's a paramilitary politics to fascism. There's also, if you look at people like Mussolini and Hitler, what they want to do is to, they have total contempt for democracy. I mean, I'm sure you'll say, well, there are lots of people now who have contempt for democracy. But they believe that the world is entering this new age because of modernity and because of new technology and all of these things.
They want to create a new society. They want to create new kinds of people. They want, they are obsessed with change. And, I mean, of course, they're looking back to the past a lot, but they believe all the old ways should be thrown out and let us create a new way of being. They're both massive overthinkers, actually, Mussolini and Hitler. If you were sat next to them by some hideous mischance of the dinner party, they'd be extremely boring. And they will be telling you about all these things they had read. You know, Hitler's a great autodidact. He writes Mein Kampf. He's somebody who's always giving these long, boring lectures about eugenics and racism and all of this kind of stuff. Trump, I think, has very little of that. Trump is a narcissist. He's only interested in himself. I don't think he's powered by a wider ideology. I do think he has obviously total contempt for democratic norms. But I don't think that's because he thinks democracy is rotten and it's weak and all this. I think it's just because it gets in his way. And so he wants to get rid.