Inside The Democratic Party Civil War - Ezra Klein - #1114

**Chris Williamson** (0:00)
Ezra Klein, so hot right now.

**Ezra Klein** (0:02)
Oh no.

**Chris Williamson** (0:03)
Did you ever expect to be referred to as an unlikely thirst trap?

**Ezra Klein** (0:07)
I did not, and I try to ignore that it's happening.
It also is this funny quality, some of this coverage of how now it's like, I took off my glasses and grew a beard, and it's very she's all that. It's like, oh, maybe he's, I always look the same to me.

**Chris Williamson** (0:25)
Well, an unlikely thirst trap feels like the most backhanded insult or compliment. It's like a Rorschach test for whether or not you feel good about yourself. I don't know what way that's, is that supposed to be a nice thing? Unlikely thirst trap.

**Ezra Klein** (0:39)
I don't, when you are profiled, it is not supposed to be a nice thing.

**Chris Williamson** (0:44)
Okay, so you'll take unlikely thirst trap.

**Ezra Klein** (0:46)
I think that's like also an important thing to know about just like the whole genre of profiling. It's never supposed to be a totally nice thing. Usually not supposed to be a totally mean thing.
It's trying to create energy.

**Chris Williamson** (0:58)
That's interesting. There was a rumor in that that you'd had to adjust your lighting on your podcast set to make you look less attractive because it was distracting from the real substance of the-

**Ezra Klein** (1:08)
It is a not true rumor.

**Chris Williamson** (1:09)
Wow.

**Ezra Klein** (1:11)
And it's going to be an even weirder thing to discuss. Like here while you're sitting there like three times is ripped in front of me as we talk about whether or not I'm hot.

**Chris Williamson** (1:22)
I thought that that was an interesting profile. But yeah, how do you feel about having a mini celebrity moment like that?

**Ezra Klein** (1:29)
You try to focus on the work.
And I mean that really seriously. I think that if you start to see yourself in the third person, it is very, very dangerous for doing good work. It's like the input of good work is independence of mind. And for me particularly, it's a lot of time spent by myself reading books, thinking about things.
Once the world's idea of you gets into your head, it is poison. And I think that's true by the way for, you know, people get profiled or have many, you know, moments. It's also just naturally true for everybody now who has social media profiles and has this kind of constant like front stage that they keep up. I always tell people who come to me for advice in journalism or who are having some kind of pop in the press that you really have to be intentionable, you have to be intentional about maintaining as much of a back stage as you can. And when I see people who aren't having a pop like destroying their back stage, I worry about them. The streamers worry me like in an almost paternalistic way. I watch the amount of their lives they're putting on online, they're putting in front of a camera, how little is left for them. And psychologically, I think it is going to do a lot of people a lot of damage.

**Chris Williamson** (2:49)
Everyone feels uncomfortable watching that.

**Ezra Klein** (2:51)
You ever read Supercell True Love Story by Gary Steingart?

**Chris Williamson** (2:53)
No.

**Ezra Klein** (2:53)
It's amazing, amazing book. It is as prophetic a book on this moment as anybody has ever done. It was probably done 10, 20, 10, 15 years ago. And everything in it, it's like it's all about a world of streamers and sort of America coming apart, and people having everything around them like raided in public, and everybody in it is looks maxing. There's a whole thing about how books smell bad, like it's sort of like de classe A to have physical books. At least we haven't done that yet. But you can really have these moments right now where you realize we have built the dystopia. We have done the thing the sci-fi writers warned us against doing just in all directions, all at once.
And it's just hope it turns out, well, this time.

**Chris Williamson** (3:40)
How do you think about protecting the backstage?

**Ezra Klein** (3:47)
I keep a lot of time quiet.
I don't go to very much.
Did you read Lena Dunham's new book? It's great, famousic. And she talks a bunch about the way everything creates more of itself, everything you do creates more of itself. And so, if you get on different circuits, it just eats you. It eats the time. So, for me, it's like the way I think about my work. Most weeks, I bring out three things. I bring out two podcast episodes and one call. And the week is just very much organized around that. And I just more and more and more try to cut out like everything that is not directly feeding into one of those pieces of work, or is not my children, my family, and deep friendships, or like personal care and time, right? And that's already a lot. Like, even as I say those five-ish things to you, I feel tired.