Downstream: The Secrets of the Chinese Internet w/ Yi-Ling Liu

**Aaron Bastani** (0:08)
The rise of China has been one of the great stories of the last century, certainly of my lifetime. It's by some measures the world's largest economy. It's the world's leading industrial power. Another major story, of course, has been the rise of the Internet, how it's disrupted, shaped, how we do business, how we do leisure, how we go about our everyday lives. But the intersection of those two stories, the rise of China and increasingly conspicuous, ubiquitous Internet is often under discussed.
How has the experience of the Internet shaped Chinese political culture and literature? How has it allowed people to express forms of dissent with their government? What political and personal possibilities has it created? What kind of business models has it led to? All of that is discussed in a fantastic new book by Yi-Ling Liu, The Wall Dancers, Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet. I am absolutely curious about all of this, particularly because this is a series of stories and perspectives we simply don't have access to here in the West. You know and I know what our politicians and media class say about China, and certainly what they think about them too. But how do they view us? Yi-Ling, welcome to Downstream.

**Yi-Ling Liu** (1:25)
Thanks so much for having me.

**Aaron Bastani** (1:26)
We're very happy to have you on. You know, I often find the conversations relating to China, East Asia, some of the most rewarding. You know Karen Howe?

**Yi-Ling Liu** (1:34)
I know Karen very well.

**Aaron Bastani** (1:36)
Yeah, she was our, I think she was our most watched episode of Downstream in 2025

**Yi-Ling Liu** (1:41)
I'm not surprised. Her book was excellent.

**Aaron Bastani** (1:43)
It's very, very good. This is also a very good book.
Briefly, you were born in Hong Kong.

**Yi-Ling Liu** (1:49)
Yes.

**Aaron Bastani** (1:50)
Tell us a little bit about your story because, of course, it does add authority to the subject Matti talked about in your book, The Wall Dancers.

**Yi-Ling Liu** (1:56)
Yeah, so I was born and raised in Hong Kong. I went to an international school and I considered myself having grown up on the fault lines of two very different systems, two political systems, cultural ecosystems, digital ecosystems. I often traveled back and forth to the mainland as well. I had a foot in the mainland, a foot in Hong Kong. I eventually went to college in the United States where I was there for four years before I decided that I wanted to return to China and specifically return to Beijing to report and write.

**Aaron Bastani** (2:30)
So when were you born?

**Yi-Ling Liu** (2:32)
I was born in 1995

**Aaron Bastani** (2:33)
So just before the handover of Hong Kong?

**Yi-Ling Liu** (2:36)
Yes, that's right.

**Aaron Bastani** (2:37)
Of course in 1997

**Yi-Ling Liu** (2:38)
That's right.

**Aaron Bastani** (2:39)
In the pouring rain.

**Yi-Ling Liu** (2:40)
Yes.

**Aaron Bastani** (2:41)
And how old were you when you moved to the US?

**Yi-Ling Liu** (2:44)
I was 18

**Aaron Bastani** (2:45)
And then back to China when?

**Yi-Ling Liu** (2:48)
23

**Aaron Bastani** (2:49)
I find it interesting. There's this clearly this growing genre of Chinese or Chinese-centered thinker, writer, somebody like Dan Wong, who I think was born in Canada, I think. Karen Howe, of course, you know, she's now living in Hong Kong. Again, sort of living and stepping between two different systems, civilizations and yourself. Do you think there's a growing number of people that kind of stride both of these cultures, these civilizations, the Anglophone world and the Sinophone world?

**Yi-Ling Liu** (3:25)
Absolutely. And many of them I have a great deal of respect for. And I think a lot of that is a result of how much exchange has taken place between these two worlds over the past couple of decades. So that's everyone from people who were born and raised in China and then ended up going to school or doing their jobs in the United States or the UK or elsewhere. That also can be people who were born and raised in the US or the UK and maybe have Chinese parents or Chinese heritage and decide to go back to China to work and study, to kind of reengage with their roots. And then there are people like me who was born in Hong Kong and kind of grew up with these two different strands already. And so I think I'm really pleased to see that that kind of straddling. I think it allows for a much more plural and kind of nuanced perspective on two countries and, you know, China in particular, a country that is increasingly seen through the lens of like a very polarized narrative.