ChatGPT and Google: The Tech Billionaire Taking On AI Companies (Matthew Prince)

**Amol Rajan** (0:00)
Hello, it's Amol here, and welcome. A very warm welcome to all of our new listeners on BBC Sounds, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever else you are listening. We've had, well, there are lots of you, new listeners, as well as old listeners, and we like you both equally. It is fantastic that we have such a growing community because here on the podcast, we are trying to do something that not many other people are really. We are on the hunt for radical ideas to help you win the future. And we are trying to explore the deep global trends that are changing our world and just trying to make sense, really, of the zeitgeist in this crazy bewildering era of human history. Now, bear with me because my guest this week is a man you may not have heard of, but who is undoubtedly one of the most powerful men in the world today. It's one of the features of the tech revolutions that I've been reporting on for the best part of the last decade, that there are these figures that occasionally pop up who most people have never heard of who aren't household names, but who will extraordinary influence and who are extraordinarily wealthy in their own right. Matthew Prince is one such person. He is the CEO of a cyber security giant called Cloudflare. And amazingly, Cloudflare is a kind of vital utility or infrastructure underneath around about a quarter of the entire internet. Earlier this year, Cloudflare put up digital firewalls and that blocks the bots, those automated bits of software, that copy content to train large language models, like OpenAI's ChatGPT or Google's Gemini, from having access to the people they serve. In other words, about a quarter of the internet. And if you just think about the implications of that, it is huge. So in this conversation, we talk about how chatbots are fundamentally changing the internet. Talk about the ways in which, in ways you would have kind of subtly noticed if you've noticed that AI overview window on a Google search. In ways that you may have seen, but not necessarily fully understood the implications of, AI is already completely transforming our world and our internet. It is, as he explains, a platform shift. And while lots of other people, including people on this podcast, including, dare I say it, your host, have sometimes been a bit, how can I put this, worried, alarmed, even gloomy, about the possibilities of the bad AI might do, you'll hear that Matthew Prince, who knows a lot about this stuff, is no technology pessimist at all.
Right, Matthew, it's so nice to see you. Welcome. Should I say welcome to London? But you're here for a few days.

**Matthew Prince** (2:44)
I'm here for a few days, yeah.

**Amol Rajan** (2:45)
Okay, and you're talking about trust and transparency, and you're talking about the future of the Internet. One of the things which I know you've been speaking out about a lot recently is the feeling that the kind of deal which existed in the Internet for the past, really 20-odd years, which involved being able to monetize traffic and people getting to your website is under huge pressure. And it's under huge pressure in a way that you, I think, saw a little bit earlier than other people because of artificial intelligence. And we could talk about the macro potential kind of consequences of artificial intelligence. It's quite separately to this. But there's something quite specific that I want to start with, if I could with you, which is that we basically had this deal, which is that if people's eyeballs get to your website, you can monetize that and you can create a business. You can do it by selling subscriptions, you can pay well, so you must, if you want to have access to a fantastic podcast, you've got to pay us before you can get it, or you can sell advertising against it. And there's also a different kind of payment, which is a nice little ego boost. You kind of feel good about the fact that people are seeing your stuff. Can you just explain for us why that model of the internet, which has really reigned supreme for 20-odd years, is under pressure?

**Matthew Prince** (3:50)
Yeah, so the internet's going through a massive transition right now.
And I think that transition is inevitable, because at the end of the day, it's better for users. And that transition is that we're moving from an internet where, as you tried to discover things on it, you used search engines, and we're all familiar with Google or Bing or the various search engines that are out there. And in search engines, you would type a query in, and then it would give you back, essentially, a treasure map of 10 links. And the search wasn't over when you got the map. You then, as a user, had to click on those links and search around to find whatever answer it is. So if you wanted to see, you know, when was Cloudflare founded, you would type that in, give you back 10 links, you would go click on it, you would read through various articles, and then you would find the answer to that. And in that process of, like, engaging and searching on that treasure map, you generated traffic. And then content creators like yourself and others could monetize that through advertisements, through subscriptions, or just again, as you said, a lot of the content online is done just because you want to know that what you're putting out in the world is actually being consumed. And so, my wife and I own a small newspaper. Our writers don't get paid based on how many people read their articles, but they're all obsessed with how many page views am I getting? How many people are coming and reading my thing? Because that's part of what's important about being a content creator.