Amb. Nicholas Burns – Allies, Partners, and the U.S.-China Relationship

**Mike Green** (0:01)
Welcome to The Asia Chessboard, the podcast that examines geopolitical dynamics in Asia and takes an inside look at the making of grand strategy. I'm Mike Green of the United States Studies Centre in Sydney and the Centre for Strategic and International Studies.
Welcome back to The Asia Chessboard. I'm Mike Green. I'm joined by one of the true giants in American diplomacy in the modern era, Ambassador Nicholas Burns. Nick is the Roy and Barbara Goodman Family Professor of the Practice of Diplomacy and International Relations at Harvard at the Kennedy School. He also co-leads the Aspen Strategy Group with my old boss, Condoleezza Rice. I have the great privilege of being part of that group and has returned from a distinguished tour as the US Ambassador to China from 2021 to 2025 Nick, it's a real privilege to have you on.

**Nicholas Burns** (0:52)
Mike, it's great to be with you. I only wish we could be in Sydney right now, one of the great cities in the world and at your university, but looking forward to this conversation.

**Mike Green** (1:01)
We will work on making that happen. You know, I always start because people are interested to learn how you got here. I know you went to SICE, so you are my senpai in the SICE world, but I want to ask it a little differently. You've had some pretty tough, challenging, exciting jobs, Ambassador to NATO. You led and I got to go along for the ride when we worked on transforming our relationship with India and the Bush administration, Under Secretary. But Ambassador to China must have been one of the most challenging of all. Are there certain professors or senior diplomats who you found yourself leaning on, whose words of wisdom came back, and you realize maybe decades later, boy, they had a point. I'm really glad they taught me.

**Nicholas Burns** (1:43)
Mike, thank you first of all for having me on your podcast. I had a long diplomatic career. I started in 1980 as a 24-year-old intern in the tiny American embassy in Nwokchott, Mauritania. I served in West Africa, the Middle East, spoke Arabic. Forty years ago, spoke Arabic in Cairo and Jerusalem. Spent a lot of time working on the Soviet Union, and then Russia and Ukraine when they succeeded the Soviet Union, and then on to NATO and China. So a long career. I would say that my ambassadorship to China was probably the most challenging job that I had in all that time. And like you, we all lean on the people who helped us learn and helped us become professionals and who were our mentors. When we were younger, when I was at Johns Hopkins SICE, Robert R. Osgood was the former dean, legendary professor of American foreign policy. He wrote a great book called Ideals and Self-Interests in American Foreign Policy, all about the trade-offs that we have had, particularly in the 20th century between our ideals and honoring them, and sometimes our more practical interests, whether it's energy or military. That book and that professor, Professor Osgood had a big impact on me. I think in my career, Mike, Condi Rice and Colin Powell and the late Frank Wisner, great American diplomat, were all took me under their wings. Condi and I were the two-person Soviet team on the NSC staff for President George HW. Bush when the Cold War was ending. In 1990, 1991 and on, and I stayed on and was special assistant to President Clinton for those countries when they emerged from the Soviet Union. Condi, you and I worked for her. When she was Secretary of State, I was her undersecretary and handled the daily diplomacy for her. She made a big impact on me. We're still very close friends. As you say, we co-chair the Aspen Strategy Group together. It was her combination of analytical brilliance, strategic foresight, particularly about the Soviets and about the fragility of their system. The fact that she's also just a great human being, has made her a lifelong friend and mentor. From Colin Powell, I worked for Secretary Powell when I was ambassador to NATO. I was there on 9-11. I was there when the Allies invoked Article 5 to defend us, which I think the framers of NATO never would have imagined.
The assumption was, the United States and Canada would have to go across the pond a third time in the 20th century to defend Europe against Stalin or Khrushchev. The great irony is that it really took an attack on the United States, on our homeland, on New York and Washington, to bring the Allies to invoke Article 5 I've never forgotten that. It really, Mike, was a lifelong lesson that the United States is very powerful in the world, but we're much more powerful and resilient. When we work with Allies, like Australia, like Japan, South Korea, our partner in India, and certainly our NATO Allies. So it's been a long career, and all those experiences formed the basis of how I approached the big problem set of China.