#97 Roger Martin: Forward Thinking

**Roger Martin** (0:01)
It feels as though all of this silo-ization of education has made people think that I can apply some narrow perspective on this, and it's the only perspective that is worthy.
And if somebody applies a different perspective to it and comes to a different point of view, it's because they're either stupid or evil, right? Like that's the explanation. Rather than saying, now, that's interesting, what do they see that I don't see? Is there a way I could integrate some of what they see into what I see to come up with a better idea? We don't seem to be taught the curiosity about that. We're taught to evaluate, is my idea better than his or her idea? Yes, no, if it is, then I should beat them into submission, right? Or if it isn't, I should say, oh dear, they're right and I'm wrong. I kind of feel all terrible about being wrong.
There's just not enough curiosity about a better way.

**Shane Parrish** (1:22)
Hello and welcome, I'm Shane Parrish, and you're listening to another episode of The Knowledge Project. This podcast and our website, fs.blog, help you sharpen your mind by mastering the best of what other people have already figured out. If you enjoy this podcast, we've created a premium version that brings you even more. You'll get ad-free versions of the show, like you won't hear this, early access to episodes before anybody else, transcripts and so much more. If you wanna learn more now, head on over to fs.blog slash podcast or check out the show notes for a link.
My guest today is Roger Martin, who in 2017 was named the number one management thinker in the world. He's the former Dean and Institute Director of the Martin Prosperity Institute at the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto in Canada. We talk about the hardest skill to transfer in decision-making, patterns of good leadership and also self-sabotage, the role of narratives in taking bold actions and integrative thinking. You'll walk away from this conversation a better leader, decision-maker and have a more connected view of the world. It's time to listen and learn.
The Knowledge Project is sponsored by MetaLab. For a decade, MetaLab has helped some of the world's top companies and entrepreneurs build products that millions of people use every day. You probably didn't realize that at the time, but odds are you've used an app that they've helped design or build. Apps like Slack, Coinbase, Facebook Messenger, Oculus, Lonely Planet and many more. MetaLab wants to bring their unique design philosophy to your project. Let them take your brainstorm and turn it in to the next billion dollar app from ideas sketched on the back of a napkin to a final ship product. Check them out at metalab.co. That's metalab.co and when you get in touch, tell them Shane sent you. This episode is supported by Teamistry, a podcast that tells the stories of unsung teams working together in new and unexpected ways to achieve remarkable things. Each episode highlights lessons that leaders can apply in their organizations. I got a preview of an upcoming episode and I really enjoyed learning about how researchers, biologists, data scientists and citizens are using AI to fight extinction across the globe. Search for Teamistry anywhere you listen to podcasts. My thanks to Teamistry for their support. This episode is brought to you by 8020 8020 is a no-code digital studio and leading Webflow enterprise partner that helps fast growing companies create stunning websites and digital products.
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Roger, so good to get to talk to you today.

**Roger Martin** (4:23)
Hey, it's my pleasure, my friend.

**Shane Parrish** (4:25)
You had an amazing mother growing up. What are some of the biggest lessons you learned from her and how did you learn them?

**Roger Martin** (4:32)
Well, it's maybe just by osmosis. She was an awesome, awesome lady, but I think the most striking thing about how I learned is she would answer almost no question. If you asked her a question, she would typically ask a question back. For example, if I'd asked her mom, have you seen my, I used to play with Tonka, those little metal Tonka trucks.
Have you seen my blue Tonka truck? And instead of her answering, she would say, well, Roger, what's the last time you are absolutely sure that you can remember holding it in your hand?